Questions About Clicker Training

I have a couple of questions.

I am wondering if I should go back to Little Man after we have ended a session, or if that is a bad idea. Sometimes I will click and treat again, and sometimes I will just rub his face and talk to him a minute.

I don't go after him if he is not coming towards me, or otherwise initiating contact. I am also wondering about ending sessions with a special treat. Is that a good idea? I was thinking it signifies to him that the session is over, so he doesn't wonder about it.

I am anxious to learn more. I am thinking that I will go ahead and work on targeting for a few days, since he is so nervous about my touching his shoulder. I am thinking about taking the face brush out and having him target that. How long should those sessions be? We usually work anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes. He just needs so much help, and I have to admit that the past six months I have felt pretty inadequate to give it to him. I appreciate all the advice and encouragement here. Thanks so much.

Blessings on you,
Kelly

Day 14

I gave Little Man the "day off" yesterday. He didn't come up when he saw me, so I hung his bucket (with wormer and a treat) on the fence. I did go out and pet him and sing to him a bit last evening, then I gave him a treat before I left.

Today -

Session #1 - around 11:00 a.m.

Little Man was grazing in the pen, so I went out and talked to him as I walked up. I went in the pen, but was careful to move to the side so as not to position myself between him and the open gate. He moved around where we was on the gate side of me.

I worked on rubbing the top of his head, and putting my hand on his shoulder. I did attempt to move where I was standing more on the side of him than his head, but he kept moving. I did a lot of stroking and rubbing on his face, though I don't usually click for that, unless he is really nervous.

When we were done, and I gave him his bite of cookie, he was standing practically in the gate. So I just moved toward him and kept telling him "back", and he backed right out of the gate! I gave him another bite of cookie, then he walked off a bit so I could come out.

Session #2 - around 6:30 p.m.

Little Man was fairly close to the fence, so I went out and walked into the pen, then over to say hi to the neighbor's goats. Little Man came into the pen with me and walked up behind me. He let me walk right up to him, and I stroked his face, then we started working.

I worked with touching the top of his head and both shoulders, just moving from place to place as it seemed good to. He was better about having me rub his head and right behind his ears, even seeming to almost enjoy it a couple of times. He seemed wary or nervous about having me touch his shoulders. He still will not let me stand beside him, and once he turned around and walked in a half circle to approach me from the other side. He was telling me he didn't want me to stand at his side.

I did move a bit so I was standing towards the side of his head, but I kept my body angled so I wasn't directly facing him. I sang to him some more, but I'm not sure if he likes it or not. He seems to like it better when the range is lower.

I told him what a good boy he was, and ended the session with a bite of cookie, then a couple of gentle pats on the neck. He enjoyed that. I started walking towards he gate and he looked concerned. He started moving towards the gate too, but I kept going and walked out ahead of him. I made sure to keep going once I exited the gate, giving him plenty of time to get out of the pen, as I didn't want him to think I was going to trap him. When he came out he started grazing not too far from the gate, and didn't move away much.

Interestingly enough, he will no longer come up to the fence to let me pet him. I went out later to give the rabbit some hay, and took a bit out to the fence for Little Man. He came only as close as he needed to, and stretched his neck out to take the hay, then immediately backed up and turned around to chew.

Blessings on you,
Kelly

Question About Day 12

"Kelly - reading your posts, I wonder if Little Man would let you touch his withers. I believe that is where his mother would have touched him to guide and reassure him?"

Answer:

He kicks when you touch his withers. Ask me how I know! I have though, on several occasions, been able to stroke his withers without having him whirl and kick, but I haven't attempted it for some time. You just never know when it's okay and when it's not. Usually it's not.

From the way he moves and positions himself, I don't believe I have his permission yet. I have gotten to his shoulder now, though he is very wary and ready to bolt. I make it a point to click and release before he takes off. I can actually see him starting to tremble and gather himself. I also am having to reach out my hand instead of stepping up close to him. He doesn't like me to step close. I think he might like having me out where he can see me.

"I may be completely off , but I find that when I introduce myself to a horse I let them first smell my hand, and then if they turn their head slightly, it's like getting permission to touch the withers (you would touch with the hand that is closest to the animal when you're facing it - less threatening). Most horses, in my limited experience, actually prefer that to being touched on or around their head - at least in the beginning."

Response:

I'm not sure if mules differ from horses in this respect, but I don't really think Little Man's issue is that he is a mule. I am pretty sure when he was beaten that he was beaten from the side. He has determined that he will not be hurt again, and is on the defensive every moment. He insists that I approach him from the front, and if I move toward the side he will reposition himself so he is standing facing me straight on. He will approach me, however, towards my side or my back, and less so head-on. In fact, he usually circles so he comes at me from an angle. But I have to get in front of him before I can touch him.

Now that I am working on touching his shoulders, I am moving a bit to the side of his head. I can't step towards him though, just sideways but still in front of him. If I move towards his side he adjusts to keep me in front of him.

We have made some progress though. Tonight I was able to reach out and stroke his neck several times withOUT having to start at this forehead and move my hand along his cheek to his neck. I really think this is amazing progress! He actually stood and let me put my hand on his neck! He did move his head away a little, but at least he didn't leave.

Blessings on you,
Kelly

Day 12

Session #1 - around 10:00 a.m.

Little Man was up getting a drink, and stood there watching me while I was out with the birds. So I went in and got my things and went out. He was standoffish this morning. He let me rub his face, but frequently backed up. I had a hard time resting my hand on the top of his head because he just kept moving. If I could touch it at all, I clicked. I was finally able to rub it a couple of times, and he pie eyed me a little.

I'm guessing after seeing me jump suddenly twice on yesterday, he's just waiting for me to do it again. I kept my body angled while I was stroking him, so he wouldn't feel as pressured, but he was still wary.

Session #2 - around 6:30 - 7:00 p.m.

Little Man was grazing out in the pasture, and looked up when I called him, but did not come up. I walked around a bit, then went over to the nice neighbor's goats and petted them a while. Little Man moved closer, but not too close. I finally walked off and he went into the pen to drink. I stayed back, so as not to crowd him or make him feel trapped. When he walked out I started walking parallel to him, then as he angled off I went back to the goats. In a very short time Little Man was right behind me.

I clicked as he moved up to me, in case the click should startle him. I left his head alone for the most part, and worked on stroking his neck down to his shoulder. I worked on just stroking to the shoulder, rubbing the shoulder, and resting my hand on the shoulder. I watched him closely, and when he looked like the pressure was building and he was about to move I clicked and released my hand, then treated him. I worked some on his right side too, but not much. He doesn't normally let me on that side. Interestingly enough, he won't usually let me touch him with my left hand. Of course, I didn't try because I hold the clicker with my left hand.

One of the goats managed to get tangled in the fence behind me, just as I was rubbing his right shoulder, and made a lot of noise. Little Man jumped away and angled his rear to me. I moved so I was away from him, and waited for him to come back. He stood there, so I went back to the goats and Little Man moved up behind me. We worked a few more minutes, mostly on the shoulder, though I did rub the top of his head a couple of times.

He was looking stressed, so I rubbed his shoulder one last time, then gave it a couple of gentle pats, and gave him a piece of horse cookie. He has always been very defensive with pats; I'm assuming he associates them with hitting. If I'm going to pat him I usually do it from the other side of the fence.

I had my fingers taped up, to keep dirt out of the wounds, and I'm not sure he liked the feel of the tape on him. The appearance didn't seem to bother him, but I think the tape may have been rough, or perhaps the edges felt funny on his skin.

I walked out to see where Kong was, and Little Man followed me. Kong was in another pasture, though I could see him. I called to him, then turned and stroked Little Man's face. Then I left, and Little Man dropped his head to graze. I'm sure he misses his buddy.

I feel as though we are making great progress. He is still wary and on guard, but he is does love treats, and is willing to work with me to get them. I have great hopes that one day he will realize that I really am not going to hurt him, and that I am his friend.

Blessings on you,
Kelly

Question about Treats

I was wondering about treating. When we work, I start with Little Man's daily wormer, then move to a 10% feed. I stopped giving him feed a while back, because he was getting tubby. But I measure out less feed than I gave him in the winter, and use that for treating. I figure if he's a little tubby, it will be worth it to reach him.

I try to end one of our sessions each day, usually the evening session, with a special treat. Or if we really make some progress, I will do whatever it is we are working on one more time at the end, trying to make it last longer, and then give him a special treat. I use either a peppermint treat, a bit of bread, or a piece of the oatmeal-raisin-honey treats I just bought.

Is it a good thing to end with a special treat? Or not?

Thanks so much!

Kelly

Day 11

Session #1 - 10:30 a.m.

Little Man was up close to the yard fence, so I went out with my gear.

He saw me and brinnied and came up towards the fence. I walked out, and he walked away, made a wide circle, then finally came towards me. I let him walk a few steps towards me, then clicked. Then I walked to him and treated him. When I reached out to stroke him he whirled and moved off about 10 feet or so. I talked to him and moved towards him, but he turned and walked away. So I went to the fence to pet the nice neighbor's goat. Little Man walked over to us.

I stroked him, rubbed the top of neck, clicked and treated. Then we kept working. He is moving his head as far away from me as he can without taking a step away, and pie eyeing me. He seemed nervous this morning. He never did really relax when my hand was up by his ears and the top of his head. In between times, I rubbed his face and under his jaw.

I bought some oatmeal, raisin, and honey horse cookies at Tractor Supply yesterday, and I had one in my pocket. When I felt he had had enough, I ran my hand up his forehead and rested it between his ears. He pulled his head up, but I kept my hand there. I waited a few seconds then clicked, and gave him a bit of cookie. Then I did it two more times. The last time he looked as though he really wanted to pull his head completely away, but he kept looking where the cookie was. I clicked, gave it to him, rubbed his face, told him what a good boy he was, and walked off.

He came right behind me, all the way to the gate. When I stopped, I said "whooooa". I always try to do that, just to get him used to associating it with stopping. Then I stroked him, moved my hand to the top of his head, cilcked, and gave him a bit of feed. Then I went in the gate, and he came up to it. I stroked him one more time, and ran my hand up to the top of his head. He was pretty far back, so I had to reach, but he must have felt safe there. I clicked, and gave him one more bit of feed, then left. He stood and looked at me for a moment, then turned and started grazing his way back out.

Midday, around 2:00

I went out just a bit to say hello, but Little Man started walking out towards the back. So I walked out that way too, but diagonally to him.

Kong came up to the fence, and I went up to pet him. I had a bit of bread for him, since I missed seeing him this morning. Little Man came up, and I stroked and petted him, but was careful to not touch the top of his head, where we've been working. I was petting Kong, and Little Man was standing behind me, when Kong suddenly sneezed and sprayed my face with snot. Yuck. I naturally jumped and Little Man did too, and whirled and and moved away. Then he looked at me suspiciously. At least, I think he did; my glasses were covered with Kong-spray, so I couldn't see very well.

I did get up to him and pet him a little bit more. I decided to see how he took both my hands on his face. He took it for a few seconds, but his suspicions won out and he moved away from me. So I stroked his face one more time, then left to go wash my face.

Session #2 - around 5:00/5:30

I was waiting around the phone all afternoon to hear from my sister, who was going to let me know when she got my mother home from the surgery center. After several hours I decided to go on out and take a picture when I saw Little Man not too far from the fence. I told my daughter to call me when her aunt called.

I tried to take his picture, but he came up to me and got so close that I couldn't get a good shot. I kept backing up and he kept coming towards me. So I finally put the camera in my pocket and started working with him. If kept working on putting my hand up at the top of his neck. He is still holding his head as far away as he can without pulling completely away. He seemed less antsy than earlier.

When I thought he needed a rest, as he seemed to be about to walk away, I decided to go out and see Kong. He's really not used to taking treats, so I'm trying to help him be gentle. I took my attention off him for just a second when I heard my daughter calling from the house, and he stuck his muzzle through the fence and bit me! I know better than to take my attention off an animal, but I did it anyway. When he bit me, very hard, I jumped and Little Man whirled and ran behind a shrub. So that was twice today I chased him off by jumping. (sigh)

I didn't want to miss my sister's call, and my finger was bleeding a good bit, so I ran in the house. I did go back out before dark, but Little Man wouldn't come to me. Kong was standing at the fence, but I didn't go out because I was wearing sandals.

I told my husband the next animal I get is going to be a poodle, and he said it better be toothless!

Blessings on you, Kelly

Day 10

Session #1 - 10:30 a.m.

Kong was back, and Little Man was out with him. Kong waited eagerly with his muzzle pressed against the fence, and as soon as I started petting him Little Man came over. I kept working on touching him behind the ears, moving from both the forehead and the neck. In between I rubbed his face. I was so pleased that he stood and let me rub and stroke all over his face: forehead to muzzle, sides, under the jaw. I was even able to cup my hand around the bottom of his jaw and hold his face, all without my clicking and without his moving! And he stood right up close to me while I did it!

I alternated between rubbing the top of his neck, and just laying my hand on it and applying a tiny bit of pressure. He is moving his head away from me, but not completely away. My arm ends up being stretched out, but he doesn't break the contact. I can see the pressure building, though, and his eyes start to get a panicky look, so I click and release before it gets to be too much for him. I am not stepping closer when he does this, because I think that would increase the pressure. And I would prefer that he not feel it necessary to whirl and kick. I think he is starting to realize that it feels good to be stroked and rubbed and petted, and it is a bonus that he gets a click and a treat to go along with it.

He only stepped away a couple of times, and when I turned back to Kong, Little Man stepped right back up behind me. I find it interesting that he stands quietly and waits while I am lavishing attention upon Kong. He will occasionally nudge me, but very gently, and sometimes will reach out his muzzle to see if he can't have what Kong is having.

One of the reasons he did not "work out" for my friends was his food aggression. He kept the horses so stirred up at feeding time that it was dangerous for my friends. The horses would end up in a frenzy of kicking, and when the husband got a solid kick that was meant for my little mule, they decided Little Man had to leave.

I have noticed that as soon as I leave, Little Man flattens his ears and pushes Kong away from the fence. He doesn't appear to want Kong's help to "clean up" the grain that I have dropped.

I ended the session by laying my hand at the top of his neck and applying a little bit of pressure, and holding it as long as I felt he could "take it". Then I gave him a peppermint treat.

Whoops, that was all for today. We didn't get finished with our errands in time to go home before swim lessons. So Little Man got a rest this evening. I wonder if he missed me?

Blessings on you,
Kelly